Firstly, let me say thank you to everyone who has responded to this issue, either for or against. This issue has certainly kicked up a stir among the Linux world, primarily, I feel, because no-one has definite answers.

Secondly, I DO have the email of the person who contacted me and I understand they are a Linux kernel developer. I suppressed the name and email address because a) it wasn't relevant; and b) so they didn't get lots of flame emails - c'mon, we all know Linux people are passionate! :)

Thirdly, I did not announce this email through fear of being sued, but because I wanted to know the truth and what the options are. I want it to be clear that Kororaa, being a GPL project, must fully comply with the GPL. The question is whether including the nVidia and ATI drivers constitutes a violation and as we have all seen, it's not an easy answer. It appears everyone has their own opinion on whether this is or isn't a violation and are quick to draw conclusions. No-one has really looked at this objectively, however.

Now, onto the update.
I have been receiving lots of information which I have been sorting through, thank you to everyone who has emailed me (although I would have also thanked you personally via email). I contacted both ATI and nVidia for some clarification on particular issues, however neither have answered my questions. Nevertheless, this is what I have found so far.

Essentially, if any program takes code from a GPL work and uses that code in its own program, then it must also be licensed under the GPL. Not only this, but a non-GPL program cannot link to a GPL program / library. If the nVidia and or ATI drivers do either of these two things, then they are in violation of the GPL if they themselves are not licensed under the GPL (which they are not).

As I understand it, in short there are a few issues (once again I am not a lawyer or an expert):

1. a) Whether the nVidia / ATI drivers contain any GPL Linux kernel code
1. b) Whether any non-GPL code has been linked with GPL Linux kernel code
2. Whether I can include non-GPL components together with those under GPL

Let me explain.

Issue 1. a):
The problem with number 1 is that it is a grey area and because it has not been taken to court yet no-one actually has a legal answer. Some Linux kernel devs (including the one who emailed me the letter) believe it IS a violation because they claim it is a derived work. Apparently Linus and others do not consider it a derived work, so long as the program was not specifically written for Linux (which in the case of nVidia and ATI it apparently is not).

Linus (source http://kerneltrap.org/node/1735):

"But one gray area in particular [in regards to binary modules] is something like a driver that was originally written for another operating system (ie clearly not a derived work of Linux in origin). At exactly what point does it become a derived work of the kernel (and thus fall under the GPL)?

[...] THAT is a gray area, and _that_ is the area where I personally believe that some modules may be considered to not be derived works simply because they weren't designed for Linux and don't depend on any special Linux behaviour.

[...] These days it would be hard to argue that a new driver or filesystem was developed without any thought of Linux. I think the NVidia people can probably reasonably honestly say that the code they ported had _no_ Linux origin. But quite frankly, I'd be less inclined to believe that for some other projects out there..."

To quote another kernel developer:

"There _isn't_ a real answer to this until/unless it's actually tested in court. It's just unknown -- anyone doing it is taking a risk, and should consider that risk for themselves."

So issue 1.a is shaky, but apparently not certain of a violation. The important question is, I guess, whether the nVidia and ATI drivers ARE derived works or not. Some say yes, others no.

But let's look at the GPL itself (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html).

What is a derived work?

GPLv2 section 0:

..a "work based on the Program" means either the Program or any derivative work under copyright law: that is to say, a work containing the Program or a portion of it

A derivative work must contain "the Program or a portion of it". If a work does not contain "the Program or a portion of it", then it is not a derived work. Therefore IF the ATI or nVidia drivers DO contain the Linux kernel ("the Program") or a portion of it, then they must be considered a derived work. However, if they do NOT, then they are not a derived work. Sounds simple enough.

GPLv2 section 2:

"You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the Program"

A "work based on the Program" means a modified copy of the Program or any portion of it. Therefore if a work does not contain the Linux kernel ("the Program"), or a portion of it, then it is not a "work based on the Program", it is a separate work. Sections 2a, 2b and 2c are requirements of a "work based on the Program" and "apply to the modified work as a whole". If part 2 does not implicate the drivers in question, then sections a, b and c do not apply.


According to the kernel devs who contacted me, even if the drivers are not a derived work, they are a collective work. They claim that the driver is a collective work because it is linked to the GPL kernel on the CD. Therefore including the non-GPL binary with a GPL kernel on the same CD is a violation, because according to the GPL the binary also needs to be GPL, which it isn’t. Make sense?

GPLv2 section 2:

"Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on the Program."

So logically, the question must be asked "are the drivers linked to the Linux kernel?".

Kernel dev:

"Now, what you're doing when you combine the binary-only modules and the kernel together into a distribution or LiveCD is _not_ "mere aggregation". That's clearly a coherent whole; a collective work and not just a bunch of stuff which happens to be sharing the same disk. [...] So while the binary-only modules _themselves_ are only 'questionable' on their own, the distribution of them _with_ a kernel is clearly a violation of the licence of the kernel."

But it is only a violation of the kernel IF the driver contain GPL code from the kernel, or if they are linked.

The whole point is whether the drivers take code from (or link to) the Linux kernel, which is licensed under the GPL. However, according to information from nVidia and from others who have contacted me, the drivers do NOT take any code from the kernel and they are also not linked to the kernel in any way. If this is the case, then they are aggregate work and not required to be licensed under the GPL.

So how do the drivers actually work?
Well the drivers are split into two sections, the source component that talks to the kernel and builds the module that you load (i.e. modprobe nvidia). According to my sources, this component is not actually linked to the kernel in anyway, but uses public interfaces to talk to the kernel. It also contains zero Linux kernel code.

The other component is the binary part of the driver. This component does not contain any Linux kernel code, is not operating system specific and is also not linked to the kernel, nor even the module component of the driver. In fact you can build the source component (the module) and load it, even without the binary component anywhere on your system. The binary portion of the driver has nothing to do with the module. The binary portion of the driver is a library that is used with a binary X driver. These libraries use functionality provided by the kernel module (through public interfaces), and are exported via device files in /dev to the system. Basically, the driver uses calls to a device file to talk to the module. The module will still load without the libraries. They will still produce files in /dev. You can still, if you write a program capable of doing so, get information from the card and even have the card perform tasks that are only available via the kernel interface.

Loading something that is not GPL does not mean the license on the loader is not GPL-compatible. Take ndiswrapper as an example. While you cannot redistribute the Windows drivers, the modules themselves are 100% GPL. What they do do, is load non-GPL components. So even a GPL package can load non-GPL code. It cannot link to it in the manner of providing actual static linking, but it can load it.

The binary portions of both the NVIDIA and ATI drivers are never linked to any part of the kernel modules. Instead, the drivers use interfaces exported by the kernel modules to emulate the kernel's DRI/DRM support. Let me give an example. Let's say that I create my Linux kernel and it has a system call, "create_page_table". My program/driver/whatever wants to create a page table in memory, so I call "create_page_table" because it is an exported interface from the kernel. This does not mean my program is linked or contains any kernel code, but simply making use of an interface exported by the kernel. It is like how connecting to a web server works, there is an interface (port 80) that is open to the public.

Using a public interface is not linking. To link, it would have to use functions within a library or binary specifically, not an externally exported interface.

The nVidia and ATI drivers do not use any of the GPL-only kernel interfaces. That is why it claims the kernel is tainted when you load them. The module does not export the GPL information, because it is not GPL, nor does it have to be. The module is not a part of the kernel. It is not built as a part of the kernel. It is not linked into the kernel. It uses the kernel's publicly exported interfaces, and exports its own interfaces, via device nodes, for a binary set of libraries and X driver to use.

If I looked at the Linux kernel source code and read about "proc" and then go and write a program that grabs information from /proc and prints it on the screen, it is not a derived work. Similarly, I can compile an application that is capable of talking to MySQL. This application could use exactly zero MySQL code. It could also use none of the MySQL libraries, provided I used standard SQL calls to talk to MySQL, either over TCP or via the socket interface. This program could be built and run on a machine with no MySQL code. The program is obviously not linked to any MySQL components.

In essence these drivers are the same. If they are not taking any code from the kernel or linking to the kernel then they are not a derived or collective work.

Number 2:
Which leads me to point number 2. The GPL does allow you to combine non-GPL components on the same CD, so long as they are "mere aggregation" (i.e. If they are NOT derived or collective works).

GPLv2 section 2:

"In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License."

If the drivers are derived or collective works, then they would need to also be under the GPL. However, according to the information above, the drivers are not derived works and they are not "a work based on the Program", they are not linked to any GPL code, therefore they are "mere aggregation" and do not fall under the GPL.

GPLv2 section 2:

"But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it."

However if the drivers are not "a work based on the Program" then they are not required to be under the GPL here either.

Having a non-GPL package like "acrobat reader" on the same CD as the GPL kernel is fine, even though they will be automatically installed into the same system as the GPL kernel (because it is NOT a derived work of the kernel, it is not linked to the kernel and it does not contain any kernel code). Naturally, if you do include derived or collective works they must also be under the GPL.

In Summary:
Well, has this made it any clearer? I'm not sure. I think we need some proof showing how these drivers violate the GPL. Anything else is really speculation.

I do wish nVidia and ATI would release their drivers entirely GPL, but I doubt this is ever going to happen. Some would argue that it never will if we allow their current non-GPL drivers to be bundled with a Linux distribution, why should they release their code? But this is really a side issue. The point is whether including the drivers does or doesn't violate the GPL. I hate the fact that I have to include non-GPL components on a GPL project, but sometimes you have to.

Mind you, there are hundreds of packages that come with a "Linux distribution" that are NOT licensed under the GPL. There are some 50+ open source licenses out there that are used with these packages and are not GPL compatible (see http://www.opensource.org/licenses/index.php). So if we can include these other packages that are not GPL, why can't we include these drivers too? (Naturally assuming there is no GPL violation.)

For people to claim that these driver do breach the GPL, one would need proof that they either take code from the Linux kernel and compile it into the resulting binary module, OR that the modules are linked to the kernel or other GPL software.

The source code for the respective module components of the drivers is available from nVidia and ATI. If anyone believes that the created modules do use code from the kernel, or link to the kernel I would be very happy receive some evidence of this.

Of course, once this is all proved in court someday we will have our answer. For me, with the information at hand, I cannot see how the drivers constitute a GPL violation. Naturally, if the drivers are a collective or derived work then they would be, and therefore cannot be distributed with the kernel, but I have yet to receive any actual evidence of this.

What does this mean for the Kororaa Xgl Live CD?
I would really like to see evidence of these drivers actually violating the GPL. At this stage everyone seems to just shout an opinion without backing it up with any evidence and it still seems a bit of an unknown.

We could just ignore it and continue distributing the drivers. Or we could, as a number of people have mentioned, let the end user install the drivers themselves (this way no-one could argue that Kororaa is violating the GPL by distributing the said drivers).

If we did not distribute the drivers, then end users would need to download the drivers from the internet and build themselves. This would mean all computers on which the livecd is run will need access to the internet. Not only this, but it will require user interaction to install the drivers (because as far as I am aware it cannot all be scripted), and I'll also need to make room for the Linux kernel source, AND make the livecd environment read write.

In short, this all seems like too much bother for a Live CD. At this stage I will not be releasing the Kororaa Xgl Live CD 0.3, but will continue to make 0.2 available.

Kororaa 2006 will not be affected, as it is not a Live CD and does not bundle the nVidia or ATI drivers.

Hope this helps people in some understanding of the issue, it has certainly helped me. If anyone sees problems in my analysis, or can provide evidence where the drivers use kernel code, please let me know.

Thanks again,
Chris Smart

I think that Kororaa is very promising. This issue is seems very gray and hard to say either way. I feel that the GPL is created to prevent Linux from not progressing. While in this case it is hindering creativity and this wonderful effort. This CD was something not seen before and was doing a lot to spearhead the adoption of Compviz and Xgl technologies. Why someone would get technical to stop such a wonderful thing makes me second guess Open Source.

Regarding the bundled drivers and letting end users install them, would it help reduce the perceived legal issues if you inserted a step in the Live CD just prior to the loading of the proprietary driver where it explained what was about to happen and specifically asked the user if they want to do this? e.g. a dialogue box would open saying something like:

---
In order to proceed with XGL enabled on this system, a proprietary driver must be loaded into the Linux Kernel.

Do you want to load the proprietary driver?

(YES) (NO)
---

I have also researched this issue for a considerable amount of time, and I do not see the ATI or Nvidia drivers as constituting a derived or collective work of the Linux Kernel.

In fact, both comanies are providing proprietary drivers that increase the user's performance and give the user a better overall experience.

Those drivers do not have to be provided by the companies in question. The companies (rightly or wrongly) think that their hardware requires trade secret protection. They are, however, trying to work within the GPL to provide customers a better experience. Some people (including me) wish that they would just release their drivers completely ... however it doesn't seem that is going to happen any time soon.

If binary kernel drivers are a violation, then change the GPL and forbid it. At least provide specific evidence that the binary drivers either use kernel code or link directly to it ... provide evidence that these drivers are a derived or collective work.

If Linus Torvalds says that he doesn't think that it is a violation (or tha the is not sure), then most likely it is not. If he was sure, he would certainly say so.

Derivate work or not?

One way to think of the issue if a binary software piece is a derived work of the GPL kernel, is to answer the question: "Can this binary software piece work without the kernel".

In the case of Kororaa (and perhaps other distros too) we should look at two files: /boot/vmlinuz and /lib/modules/.../nvidia.ko .

The point is, vmlinuz is GPL licensed and nvidia.ko is a non-GPL binary blob made to work with that exact GPL-ed vmlinuz. nvidia.ko will not work with any other software, which *I think* (but a court should calrify this maybe) makes nvidia.ko a derivate work of the GPL vmlinuz.

Now the GPL requires that, for all GPL works and its derivates if they are distributed in a binary form, that the source be made available.

Unfortunatelly, NVidia and ATI don't allow that, by hiding the specifications of their hardware.

Other distributions make a built driver available online. With ubuntu you can install an nvidia driver with a simple command:

sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx

It simply downloads the built nvidia binary drivers and installs it. No issue with the gpl.

You can probably bundle the build tools and put NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-8762-pkg1.run on the CD (or online) and ask of the user if they would like to add nvidia accelerated driver support. Then have the driver build and install. If they say no it will default to software rendering.

The read/write support can happen in ram (with unionfs) and flushed out later to a pendrive or to a writable session on a CD.

I shouldn't be saying this because blobs are
evil, but...

you're right, they are never distributed in
"linked together" form. The unfree module and
the kernel are only linked together in memory
(if "loading a blob" which only uses exported
interfaces counts as linking at all, which I
do not think it does) and never distributed.
The GPL is a distribution licence and doesn't
put any restrictions on using (it especially
mentions that somewhere).

@Dhonn: there's no difference whether you are
distributing it on the live CD or separately.
It's either legal or illegal.

In this case, it's legal, although despicable.

And I'm surprised that none of you GPL and GNU
persons discovered that and that it needs a
BSD developer to point that out to you.

(We don't have problems with binary drivers,
by the way - if we had any, that is.)

PS: I'm *extremely* annoyed having to start
a graphical windowing system just to post a
comment here - it does not work with Lynx.

Could it be argued that a LiveCD is a collective work, and not an aggregate, by the mere fact that is's a LiveCD and not just a DistributionCD?

That is the CD can be viewd as beeing exactly one program, executed as a whole when booted. Thus what A[BP]I is used as an internal mechanism in the program wouldn't matter at all, be it bash, vfs or C-bindings.

And just a tip, when interpreting laws, words doesn't have the same meaning as in dictionaries. They are defined in the law it self and/or by previous rulings based on the law.

Try asking www.fsf.org or www.eff.org for advice. I dont remember exactly, but I think the FSF is the arbitrator of the GPL.

IANAL. IMO, you seem to have answered your own question:

Using a public interface is not linking. To link, it would have to use functions within a library or binary specifically, not an externally exported interface. The nVidia and ATI drivers do not use any of the GPL-only kernel interfaces.

And then you quote the GPL saying:

In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License.

I'm not too clear on how the GPL applies to compiled GPL'd binaries and their interaction in memory with non-GPL'd binaries (it'd be a lot easier if it was only a matter of source code), but if what you say above is true, then it's pretty clear that you are not in violation of the GPL.

(It's been established that providing a GPL'd binary on a CD compilation with proprietary binaries is not, in and of itself, a violation of the GPL; it's in the nature of the interaction between them -- i.e. when they're run together -- that any violation might occur.)

As this is a matter for lawyers, not kernel hackers (or random blog posters like me) to decide, I'd encourage you to contact a lawyer at the FSF for a legal ruling on this issue.

I'm sorry to see your project torpedoed in this manner.

There is a similar situation with Fludeno's patent-licenced MP3 decoder for GStreamer. The situation there occurs when a GPL-licenced application loads a GPL-incompatible plugin (or vice versa).

With that, Fluendo had legal advice that it was a copyright violation to ship them together, but not if there were installed separately (i.e. the user downloaded it). Several large distros discussed whether they could safely ship the decoder to get fully-licenced mp3 decoding out-of-the-box - but they decided against it, presumably after legal advice.


That said, this is all just speculation, and the only way you can get a definite answer is for someone to fight it out in court. Although which different courts may interpret it different ways, which would be a nasty problem.

Using a public interface is not linking. To link, it would have to use functions within a library or binary specifically, not an externally exported interface.


So linking dynamically to libraries uses only internal functions and not public interfaces?
Gee. Wish they knew that before they went to the trouble of creating the LGPL.


I am just a visitor from another planet so maybe I have a slightly more cynical view on this.

I think you've put more than enough effort into this and I followed everything you said. Now, I think you have definately a right to continue working on this project until someone comes up with proper proof to the extent of yours and above that you are violating the GPL (innocent until proven guilty ?).

It'd be awesome to see the Kororaa XGL LiveCD 0.3 , I absolutely adore it and show it to all my friends to have them see the power of linux in terms they can understand

I would ask http://www.gpl-violations.org about this.
They should be able to help you sort out the legal stuff of the gpl license.

First i want comment on a side note

<i>>Mind you, there are hundreds of packages that come with a "Linux distribution" that are NOT licensed under the GPL. There are some 50+ open source licenses out there that are used with these packages and are not GPL compatible [..] So if we can include these other packages that are not GPL, why can't we include these drivers too (Naturally assuming there is no GPL violation.)?</i>

There are two answers:
1. If you link it again GPL Code you violate the GPL, this also happens with software which is licensed under a non GPL compatible Free Software licenses.
2. I take your bracket into account and we talk about software which doesn't link against GPL code and therefor doesn't violate the GPL: The difference between other (non GPL compatible) Free Software licenses and proprietary software licenses is that the proprietary software licenses take away users freedom. So it's not a good idea to use and distribute non-free software whether it violates the GPL or not. Imaging we would have something like a abstract kernel API which would allow using non-free drivers. This would make this drivers legal but not better, there would be no GPL violation but the driver would still take away users freedom.

But now to the whole topic about Kororaa. Nobody can sue you because of an GPL violation but the author of the code licensed under the GPL. As i can read in many statements of Linus Torvalds it seems like there is an acceptance of this non-free drivers so probably you will not get sued if you continue to distribute Kororaa even if it is a GPL violation.
But this is just the legal point of view. The other point comes from my answer number 2 at the top. Whether it's a GPL violation or not and whether someone will sue you or not the question remains if you want to distribute software which takes away users freedom?
A simple solution would be to release Kororaa just with the Free Software driver which support Xgl. This would be at least some Intel driver, probably some free drivers for ATI cards and in the future hopefully the free Matrox driver (mga) too.

seems to me the derivative work here is the _combination_ of a gpl linux with non-gpl driver into a single coherent software unit. and such a combination is clearly in violation of the gpl.

Pinky, how exactly does using closed source video drivers take away someones freedom? that statement sounds a far bit too ridiculous.

The only difference is the fact that it is not open source, for 99% people, who cares? they just want the best from the best and that is what they are getting.

>Pinky, how exactly does using closed source video drivers take away someones freedom?


i don't want to go into a discussion of principles.
But just some answeres:
It takes you away the freedom to help yourself or your friend by changing the driver, port it to another system or just fix a bug.
It takes you away the freedom to study how it works and learn.
It takes you away the freedom to help other by giving them a copy or create such great things like kororaa.
It takes you away the freedom to use the software for whatever purpose you want.

I hope this causes some big changes in the open source community. I have long avoided using source released under GPL even if i am working on an open source project. GPL is simply too restrictive. Though they preach freedom, their license is actually much more restrictive than even a Microsoft source license.

The problem is one of philosophy. The FSF believes that all source should be free (as in beer not as in speech) so much so that even other less restrictive open source licenses are un-acceptable. They wish to restrict everyone to their rules - this is not freedom. It is this mindset that has open source falling far short of it's potential. This case is a prime example, all Kororaa was gather the best that was available for linux and assemble what was arguably the best linux ever. You can do it yourself, if you are willing to recompile the kernel - a task that is beyond the average user. Until the GPL is changed or abandoned then Linux will not go mainstream.

Had linux been released under a BSD license, this would have been a non issue. I hope that Linus Torvolds will get behind a change or that the open source world will rally behind FreeBSD where this would not be an issue.

I part of the confusion comes from the claim that GPLed code can not link to non-GPLed code. I don't think that position (which is the explicit position of the FSF) is supported by law. In the old days when there was only one kind of linking -- static linking which copied a portion of a library module directly into the resulting executable, then linking might have had some legal significance.

In my mind there are two kinds of works addressed by the GPL -- derived works and "mere aggregations". The standard for derived works in US copyright law in a software context is very clear. It is the abstraction-comparison-filtration test. If a piece of software is substanically similar to another, pre-existing work in *protectable* expression, then it is a derived work.

In my non-legally trained opinion, anything which isn't a derived work (and subject to the GPL) falls under the "mere aggregation" clause.

So, we are faced with the situation of a nvidia.ko object which is made from compiling a GPLed bit of C code with a binary blob from nvidia. I think we all can agree that the biniary bit is *not* a derived work of the kernel. I understand that it is the very same binary blob originally written as part of the Windows driver. It includes no kernel expression.

Does the nvidia.ko object itself violate the GPL? It contains protectable expression of a GPLed work -- the GPLed shim layer. But the author of this is nvidia and they would be the only ones to have standing to sue.

A more difficult question is whether the nvidia.ko file is a derived work of the kernel. Again the (US) legal standard is abstraction-comparison-filtration. The "GPL Only" interfaces are a consideration. They indicate what the kernel developers think is the difference between the published interface and the kind of close cooperation which might indicate a derived work. As such, the GPL only interfaces make a kind of estoppel -- kernel developers should not be able to assert a derivative work against something which uses only "GPL only" services.

Does the nvidia.ko file include macros expanded from kernel headers? Those might constitute the exact protectable expression the court would be looking for.

So we're left in a legal nowhere land. If it came down to a lawsuit, I think it could go either way. The fact that you can rebuilt the nvidia.ko from the source and binary portion if necessary is probably a strong argument that the requirements of the GPL have been met. But this is very much a grey area and, in anotrher sense, once you've been sued and you have to expend funds to defend yourself, you;ve already lost.

I started out this discussion on another forum a few weeks ago convinced that the Live CD was OK. I've since equivocated. The nvidia.ko file is problematic and a lawsuit could really go either way depending on the judge, jury (if one) and direction the wond blows outside the courthouse.

Bobby Skinner:
"The problem is one of philosophy. The FSF believes that all source should be free (as in beer not as in speech) so much so that even other less restrictive open source licenses are un-acceptable. They wish to restrict everyone to their rules - this is not freedom. It is this mindset that has open source falling far short of it's potential. This case is a prime example, all Kororaa was gather the best that was available for linux and assemble what was arguably the best linux ever."

Isn't that ironic? If you ask me, the answer would be to e-mail Linus and the author of the GPL and the FSF and see what they have to say.

"Does the nvidia.ko file include macros expanded from kernel headers? Those might constitute the exact protectable expression the court would be looking for."

If we go this route, then SCO would have a case against IBM and all other Unix/Linus supporters, in the case of the 'similar' header files for IBCS.

The consensus of the community there is that header files; which supposedly merely identify values of constants or data structures, are not really 'code', per se...

IMHO, they either ARE code, or ARE NOT code - they can't be both just depending on whether we'd like a specific outcome in a specific situation.

Linus has pretty much ok'd non-static linked binary non-GPL'd drivers... ...as long as they don't copy executable kernel code. If that's ok with him, it ought to be ok with us.

I understand the 'purists' arguments, but to be perfectly honest, it's an academic ideal. The fact of the matter is that the software in question has to be USEABLE, if it's going to survive and thrive. There are lots of 'open sourced' projects on Sourceforge that have not had ANY activity in years... Why? Perhaps because of lack of interest, rescources, or maybe just because they never got far enough to provide any useable function.

The ati and Nvidea drivers give people what they need, at the cost that MOST people seem willing to pay. If you are not, then, by all means, go off and do your own thing. But don't take away the 'freedom' of other folks to do theirs, as well...

Your point of view on linking and derivative works is way different from what I read up to now by different kinds of people - Eben Moglen and the likes (btw, his http://www.softwarefreedom.org/ department is probably the most competent institution in this respect).

From what I have read in every discussion of this topic except this one, it seemed clear that linking dynamically ("loading", as you say) can be regarded similar as linking statically. Also, NVidia's kernel module is clearly derivative works as it uses interfaces - public ones, naturally, as private ones cannot be used at all - interfaces which are specific to Linux.

The point in defining "derivative works" is: Do you fit your product to the specifics of the Linux kernel? The kernel module does that, using functions that BSD and others don't provide. It can only be linked dynamically because its license is a BSD one which allows "implicit relicensing" under the GPL. That is, when you put the kernel module and the kernel itself together, then both become GPL licensed - the common denominator of both licenses, if you wish. (If you're exact, the GPL only allows to be linked with other GPL stuff, and LGPL/BSD/X11 licenses can be transformed to GPL when necessary. Side note: This was also the primary reason of the XFree/X.org split, because the new XFree license could not be transformed into the GPL anymore.) So, linking GPL and BSD code together (statically just as dynamically) is totally ok even if the BSD code is derived works, like the NVidia kernel module actually is.

By the way, your example with /proc is actually a very bad one, because /proc internals are totally specific to Linux. If you even have to consult Linux documentation for it, then it's derived works as it doesn't work on something else just as well. From what I read up to now, it doesn't matter if some works link to GPL code or not, but if they are based on specifically this work. When strictly programming for the POSIX standard, nobody will ever accuse you of doing a Linux-derived work. When you're using interfaces (functions, files, whatever) that are specific to Linux, you are doing a Linux-derived work. At least, that's how I got it, and I have been reading quite a few articles on that topic with interest. Also note that the GPL says nothing about the method used for deriving your works, it especially doesn't restrict itself to linking.

The only reason that the binary blob can maybe (nobody knows) be linked into the kernel is because:
1. It does not use any Linux specifics. No Linux-specific interfaces, no /proc files, nothing. The same blob used for Linux, X11, and BSD, meaning it is not derived from Linux.
2. The kernel module is BSD licensed, and BSD allows for inclusion of proprietary stuff.

The actual question for the lawyers is if the (NVidia or ATI) kernel module, when dynamically linked to the kernel, should still be regarded as BSD (as this is the original license and would allow for linking the blob), or as GPL (as it becomes GPL on loading the module). When the kernel module is seen as GPL on linking, then loading the binary blob is clearly illegal.

And because you're distributing all together, you essentially distribute everything with the least common denominator, which is the GPL, all licenses can agree on its text. While I still don't know if all of this hits the point, I think your argumentation stands quite weak and doesn't address the core problem but rather fixates on static linking, which is not the question. You won't have much luck legally with this argumentation, I fear.

Oh, and IANAL. Please do consult Eben Moglen on this issue if you want competent legal advice.

But the purpose of these drivers is to be used not ripped apart and have 100's of crap filled version floating on the internet and why can't they be distrobuted to a friend? people on the internet distrobute modified nVidia and ATI drivers, i'd say thats pretty free.

It looks to me the GPL is the one stopping the nVidia and ATI drivers from being included so how about not putting the full blame on one side eh.

The Open Source idea might sound nice but compare how many people would actually use it if it was available and the user as opposed to programmer base is much larger, majorities usually win you know.

Just like alot of things, if you don't like it use something else or make your'e own. Why is it necessary to change someone elses work?

> It looks to me the GPL is the one stopping the nVidia and ATI
> drivers from being included so how about not putting the full
> blame on one side eh.

Nobody puts the blame on one side, I'd say there is no one to blame. ATI and nVidia try to keep their secrets secret, and the GPL-code-writing kernel developers try to keep all necessary code open, and try to persuade others to open source theirs.

That's two legitimate points of view. Anyways, the GPL is not to blame, as such cases are the whole point of this license. And Linus just as the all of other kernel developers know this fact, and they have chosen the GPL conciously. (Otherwise, they would be developing for one of the BSDs.) If anyone doesn't like the philosophy behind the GPL, they can still use *BSD and get rid of all these problems. Oh, wait, there's no Kororaa LiveCD based on a BSD system? Why is that?

> The Open Source idea might sound nice but compare how many
> people would actually use it if it was available and the user
> as opposed to programmer base is much larger, majorities
> usually win you know.

So you say convenience is more important than following the law? Strange opinion, IMHO.

> Just like alot of things, if you don't like it use something
> else or make you're own. Why is it necessary to change someone
> elses work?

It wouldn't be such an issue if it was possible to make our own stuff. The thing is that ATI and nVidia not only keep their drivers closed, but additionally they don't even publicise the interfaces that are possible to write those drivers.

Imagine the graphics card as someone speaking another language than me, say, Afrikaans. NVidia employs a person who can translate between my language and the other one's, but they need the translator themselves, so I can't take him with me. (That would be the driver.) They also have the only book which is available on learning Afrikaans, but they won't let me read it because they fear I could tell ATI how to speak that language, afterwards. (That would be the specifications.)

So, what do I do? Right, I have to learn the language by trying to figure it out together with my foreign mate. Now imagine how hard it is for developers to develop an own driver, without having any idea what the graphics card's language is like. It may work out in the end, but it is one hell of an effort, and it will take much more time than nVidia has taken to do the same, because they had the learning book. It could be so much easier if they gave it to us too, and the kernel developers would write independent open source drivers within a few weeks. We don't really need the nVidia and ATI drivers open sources, all we need is knowing how to talk to the cards by ourselves.


But the question here is if distributing the binary drivers together with the kernel is legal, not if the philosophy behind the GPL is wrong. Commenting on that doesn't change a thing for Kororaa, it only shows that people would be willing to trade all of the freedom for a little convenience. Regarding it that way, I'm glad that the user majority doesn't have the power to influence licensing, because they would bury their own grave sooner or later.

Interstingly, in this note about Sun's Java binaries and non-GPL binaries in general

The Curious Incident of Sun in the Night-Time

Stallman make explicit mention of the nVidia drivers being incorporated into Linux distributions. While it seems quite clear that he is _philosophically_ opposed to such practices he seems not to view them as being in violation of the GPL.

I don't know what Stallman meant, but even Linspire seems to require a separate download:
http://forum.linspire.com/viewtopic.php?t=419433

regarding the following:

Not only this, but it will require user interaction to install the drivers (because as far as I am aware it cannot all be scripted), and I'll also need to make room for the Linux kernel source, AND make the livecd environment read write.

The livecd environment would have to be read/write (see Dhonn's comment), but every step required to install the drivers can be scripted (see e.g. the Games Knoppix).

Quote taken from: http://linux.coconia.net/politics/kmodsGPL.htm

The GPL (General Public License) is a software license originally written by Richard Stallman.

You can find a copy of it at http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php

The above mentioned possibility of hiding the entire code of a program as an application library, is the reason that the GPL demands that any application that links to GPL'd shared libraries, must itself be GPL'd (a program is GPL'd, if it is licensed under the GPL).

It has been claimed that distributing a GPL'd kernel with binary closed source kernel modules is illegal. This claim has been advanced, to stop Linux distributors from shipping with Nvidia and ATI drivers that work "straight out of the box". A recent example of this is the Kororaa controversy.

Those wishing to cripple Linux, make many unsubstantiated claims, some of which are wrong, in order to prevent Linux distributors shipping Nvidia and ATI drivers that work "out of the box". Here is a sample:

1) GPL and non-GPL components cannot be included together on a CD.
2) Closed source kernel modules distributed with a GPL'd kernel clearly violates the GPL.
3) Don't include closed source kernel modules as the situation is murky. You might get sued.
4) Closed source kernel modules link to the kernel in the same way that applications link to libraries, therefore you cannot include them with a GPL'd kernel.

One, is wrong. Two, is not clear at all. Three, which sounds correct, is also wrong. Think about it, who is going to sue you? The Free Software Foundation? Not likely. Perhaps Microsoft might be interested in enforcing the GPL. Four, seems to have some merit, but is wrong.

For the rest, see:

First, IANAL, I'm just a software engineer who's been involved in OSS and Public Domain software for longer than Linux (or the GPL, for that matter) has been in existance.

I'm amazed at how some people assert that loading a binary file (the blob) into a GPL module, at run-time, where the binary file itself is not GPL, constitutes a violation of GPL. The source for the wedge module *is* available, just not the source for the blob. Do these same people assert that reading a non-GPL Java applet jar file into one of the GPL java VMs violates the GPL? How about loading firmware into a hardware subsystem where the firmware is not GPL, but the Linux driver for the device is. Does this constitute a violation of the GPL?

The blob that nVidia ships is not built against the OS. It has an interface that known to the (source available) wedge, and the wedge is built against the OS. If the blob needs a resource, it requests the wedge, through a defined interface, to get that resource for it. It does not make direct calls to Linux. The same blob works under other OSs, only the wedge is different. You might want to think of the blob as device firmware rather than a driver, which (technically) it isn't.

I will not get into the arguments about whether hardware manufacturers' reasons for not making open source drivers (or at least documentation that would allow open source drivers to be written) available are valid. I will say that shipping the blob on in a distribution of Linux does not impede anyone's freedom any more than making people download and install the driver after they get the distribution (I could acually make the counter-argument). The GPL states that the sources to all of the GPL'd stuff, and its derived works, be made available on request. This is not violated in any way by a distribution that happens to contain the binary file containing the blob. If the source to the wedge is not made available, then there may be some argument that a violation has occurred.

It may leave a bad taste in your mouth, and a burning brick in your gut to have to deal with these modules. I will not try to temper your rightious indignation against the manufactuerers. I do believe (and would testify in court as an expert witness) that the use of these modules at run-time does not, in any way, violate either the spirit or the letter of the GPL.

I'm amazed at how some people assert that loading a binary file (the blob) into a GPL module, at run-time, where the binary file itself is not GPL, constitutes a violation of GPL.

It is not the "loading" that is the violation.
It is the distribution.
That is why the binary files are installed separately , by the user, not the distributor.


If the blob needs a resource, it requests the wedge, through a defined interface, to get that resource for it. It does not make direct calls to Linux.

If the GPL exempted such linking, a loophole around the GPL would exist whereby you could just write a GPL shell around any binary that did need to make direct calls to Linux.


I will say that shipping the blob on in a distribution of Linux does not impede anyone's freedom any more than making people download and install the driver after they get the distribution.

You would have shipped software (the binary blob) that the user could not modify, thus violating the GPL.


The GPL tries to enforce the 4 software freedoms:
1. Freedom to run the program, as you wish.
2. Freedom to study the source code, and change it to do what you wish.
3. Freedom to make copies and distribute them to others, when you wish.
4. Freedom to distribute modified versions, when you wish.

The GPL tries to encourage the spirit of sharing and freedom:

Many people contributing to the same piece of software can lead to a better SW for everyone.
(Power of sharing.)

Having the right to use and make modifications gives me control over my own destiny.
(Power of freedom.)

It is true that you could just download the binaries anyway, and that would be your choice.

When you distribute GPL-licensed software, though, you are obliged to follow the license.

People will not try to sue you into bankruptcy. But the software you are using was licensed GPL, so please honor it.
software.newsforge.com/software/06/05/01/1938223.shtml

Thank-you for having made an honest effort.

"I do wish nVidia and ATI would release their drivers entirely GPL, but I doubt this is ever going to happen."
Chris Smart

Fortunatly IN TWO/THREE YEARS IT WOULD BE TECHNICALY IMPOSSIBLE TO WRITE NON_GPL DRIVERS FOR 3D GRAPHIC. So community would do gpl drivers (Nouveau for exemple http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ ) or ATI/NVIDIA would be forced to do gpl drivers. :) Fast, *stable* rock solid desktop is ready for Us...


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